The Passion Test

The Passion Test - Chris Attwood

The Passion Test – Chris Attwood

The following is a transcript of an exclusive interview and conversation between Patrick Wanis PhD and Janet and Chris Attwood. To listen to the interview, click here: https://patrickwanis.com/blog/thepassiontest

Click here for the free passion test analysis and for free access to the videos by Janet and Chris Attwood https://www.thepassiontest.com/offer/ptprofile?af=60482

Dr. Patrick Wanis: This is Patrick Wanis, Celebrity Life Coach, Human Behavior & Relationship Expert and Clinical Hypnotherapist, PhD.

So when I say the word “passion,” what comes to your mind? For most people, passion tends to create the thought or emotion of some link to a physical experience, something maybe hot and heavy in the bedroom.

But what is passion? Well, Chris and Janet Attwood are the authors of the New York Times Bestseller “The Passion Test: The Effortless Path to Discovering Your Destiny.” They’ve also helped thousands of people around the world to find their passion. So let’s find out “What is passion?” A big hello to Chris and Janet.

Chris Attwood: Hi, Patrick, so great to be with you.

Janet Attwood: Yeah. Thank you for having us.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: Well, I’m excited to hear your message. So before I tell people a lot more about you, because there’s a lot to be said about both Janet and Chris and it’s good, I want to ask the first question. What is passion?

Chris Attwood: It’s a great question. We love that question. Thank you, Patrick. And as you said, most people tend to associate the word “passion” with some feeling that they have. And we would differentiate a little bit, you know, and we would say that feeling that you have is the feeling of being passionate. And so you what is it that makes you or causes you to feel passionate about something? And that’s what we refer to as your passion.

So your passions from our perspective are the things that you love most, the things that you care most deeply about, the things that matter most to you in your life. When your life is connected to those things then you have that emotional feeling that you were talking about…

Dr. Patrick Wanis: “When you connected to the things that really matter to you now.” It’s interesting you say that, Chris, because often when I meet people, I’d like to ask the question, at some point in the conversation, particularly a woman, “What is your passion?” And the reason I say that is because the first thought that women will come up with is, “Are you asking me a sexual question?” Then when I say, “No, I’m not talking about sex at all,” then they become even more confused, men and women, because they’re not sure or have almost no idea of what is their passion.

So I want to talk a little bit with Janet for a moment because Janet discovered her passion, and it wasn’t what she was doing at the time or what she trained for. So can you tell me your story, Janet?

Janet Attwood: Yeah, I’d love to tell that story. So probably, as most people are listening, have also had this experience, Patrick, that I was once in a job I hated. I couldn’t stand it. I was failing at it miserably. I was actually recruiting disk drive engineers in Silicon Valley. And before that job, I was doing something I really loved. I was teaching meditation in Palo Alto, California. It was a blast.

But the downside was, I was living on the meditation center floor and I was jumping over a fence everyday into this apartment building to the pool shower because there wasn’t a shower or a bathtub in the meditation center. I was actually living in the office. So my friends that came to my lectures heard about the fact that I was running across the street everyday and jumping over the fence to take my shower.

They were making millions of dollars recruiting disk drive engineers in Silicon Valley. And they called me up and they said, “Janet, we got this great job and you’d be great. You’d love it. And you’ll make millions of dollars.” And all I can hear …

Dr. Patrick Wanis: And that’s what you were excited about?

Janet Attwood: Yeah, all I can hear was millions of dollars because I kind of thought “Oh, my God, I could have a bathtub. You know, how cool would that be?” And so I absolutely said, “Yes, I’m in.” And when I came on, they knew me well because they came to my lectures and they thought “She is going to burn it up.” And I said, “I am going to burn it up” because they said, you know, “You’re so enthusiastic. These disk drive engineers are going to love you.”

And they have this bell at the front of the office that they would ring every day, every time they got a job for an engineer. They would ring this bell and this bell is ringing, ringing, ringing, ringing, and ringing for a whole month for everyone, absolutely everyone in the office, but me.

And I was mortified and I was like “What is the problem?” What I didn’t realize, number one was that, I could care less about disk drive engineers. I was so not interested in recruiting technical engineers because it’s very technical job and I am very not a technical person. And so that was number one – a disconnection from my side. And the other thing was, you know, so there I was with no passion. Number two, I went for the money, right.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: But can I interrupt? Is there something wrong with going for the money?

Janet Attwood: Well, let’s put it this way. For me, there was. I mean, you know, if you have the passion for making money, you’re like a Donald Trump, then go for it a hundred percent. And if it’s in alignment with your other passions that you’re into, that you are going to make a lot of money but you’re also doing what you love. But if you’re just doing it for the money, that’s not going to bring you happiness.

And we’ve all heard about people who have jumped out of windows that had billions of dollars, you know, million of dollars. And why? Because the deepest aspects of what they cared about in their life, you know, what really had great meaning for them was not fulfilled and they were going through something on the outer that they thought would bring them, you know, inner fulfillment, so it just wasn’t there.

And now it’s also my experience, that I wasn’t feeling very inner fulfilled because I wasn’t at all interested in what I was into, again, and there I was going for the money.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: Right

Janet Attwood: You know, if some people can get away with it but what they find is that they have a bunch of money and they don’t have any happiness. So what’s the point, right? So yeah ,I mean, you know, I can side bar on that one for about an hour but let me get back to the story and we’ll go, go with some more questions. Is that okay?

Dr. Patrick Wanis: Sure.

Janet Attwood: So here I was. The bells are ringing and the bell is not ringing for me and I am thinking this so is not okay. And every night after work, I would go and meditate in the local meditation center. And one night, I looked on the wall when I’m came out of meditation. They had this poster board up there that said, “Yes to Success Seminar.”

And it was a seminar in San Francisco. So I called in to work. It was the next day. So I called in to work sick. I said “I can’t come to work. I’m so ill.” And I lied. I know no one listening has ever lied. (laughs.)

But, anyway, so I go to this seminar. I walk in and sit down in the front row. This woman comes on. She is on fire, excited, passionate, looks good, feels good, and she is good. And everything she’s talking about, I am thinking “Oh, my God, you know, she’s talking about being in your integrity and doing the things you love and really living the life of your dreams. And she is so speaking my language and I’m about six feet off my chair in the first five minutes.

And I have this huge “Aha.” While she’s talking, I realized “Oh, my God! It was like a brick wall hit me.” I thought “I’m supposed to be what she’s doing. I am supposed to do what she is doing.” That’s what I’m supposed to be doing. And her name is Debra Poneman, by the way, who was running this seminar called “Yes to Success.”

Then the next “Aha” was just a few minutes later. She’s started talking about a survey that’s been given on the hundred most successful people in the United States. And what that survey had found was that all of these hundred most successful people were all living what they considered to be their top five passion.

And that was the second huge “Bam” and I was like “Oh, my God. That’s it. That’s it.” If I could figure out what my top five passions were, then I’d be just like these other hundred most successful people in the United States. And in that moment was the birth of the “Passion Test.” Now I’m sitting there and she is talking about, you know, she goes on and talk about dressing for success and sitting for ideas and I’m sitting there thinking “What are my top five? What are my top five? And then, after I start to, you know, like start to get a little plan going in my brain, I come back in my mind to this seminar.

I sit there and I start realizing that this woman has to be my mentor because I want to do what she’s doing and somehow I’m going to have to figure out how to do that. And then I come up with this plan “Okay, I’m just going to tell her. I’m going to tell her I have to work for her or I have to, you know, just to be with her somehow, you know. I’ll put her paper clips on her, you know, with her paper together, just something. And I’m waiting, waiting, waiting for that special moment to come where I can ask her and it’s not coming, and it’s not coming. And finally, at the end of the seminar, she goes “Could someone take me to the airport?”

And when she says that, my arm about flies out of my socket and she looks at me and she goes, “Okay.” And when I said and so I took her to the airport. And as we’re driving, I am like waiting for that moment. The moment is not coming. Finally, we get to the airport and finally, finally that moment came and she turned to me and she says, “Well, so what is it that your dream is?” And I looked at her and I was so excited I said, “I’m so glad you’re asking me because if you don’t hire me, you better move over because I’m going to be your next competition.”

And I couldn’t, Patrick, I couldn’t believe I said that. It just blurted out of my mouth and she looked at me. And right when she looked at me, they called her plane. And she looks at me, again, smiles, gives me a hug and walks off. And I’m like “Oh, my God! I didn’t do that.” Anyway, I’m driving back to the meditation center that night and I think it’s okay. Somehow, it’s going to be okay. It’s okay and I wasn’t thwarted because I knew that I had a plan – I knew I was going to work with her. I knew it.

And I said “Okay, how am I going to do that?” And I thought I’m going to go on a national tour. She’s going on a national tour. She’s going to – she’s going to Boston and Washington and Iowa and LA. And I don’t know how, but somehow I’m going to get the money to go, and I’m going to follow her all over the United States. And somehow I’m going to sit down in the front row of her seminar and somehow she’s going to have to hire me.

Somehow, that’s going to have to happen. I don’t know how it’s going to happen since I am minus money, but it’s going to happen. Anyway, I get to the meditation center. I see a friend. We started talking, I tell her my dream. We say good night. I go to work. I come back the next night after work to meditate. I’m sitting down. And all of a sudden as I’m meditating, I feel paper falling on my head. And I look up and there’s the friend that I told my dream to, the night before, that I had met in the meditation center. And she’s dropping one hundred dollar bills all over my head. And she looks at me and she says, “Merry Christmas, Janet. Go live your dream.”

And so what do you think Patrick? What do you think I do with that money?

Dr. Patrick Wanis: Well, that’s a good question. Did you take it or did you say “No, I can’t take it?”

Janet Attwood: No, so I took it and I bought the ticket.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: Okay.

Janet Attwood: And I flew to Boston and I didn’t tell the seminar leader, Debra Poneman, and I walked in and I sat down in the front row. She walks in, she looks out and she sees me. She goes, “I remember you in San Francisco.” I said “Yeah,” you know and then and I don’t say a word. She flies away. She goes to Washington, DC, to her next seminar. I go to Washington, DC. I sit down in the front row. She walks in this time and all of a sudden she looks at me, I’m sitting in the front row again she’s like “What are you doing? You’re like a stalker.” And then I don’t say anything.

I go to Iowa. She goes to Iowa. You know this time she walks in, she’s like “What are you doing?” You know, and she’s starting to like get a little nervous. Finally we’re in LA. I fly to LA. She flies to LA. She walks in. This time she looks at me and all of a sudden she just takes her arms, throws them up and says really loudly “All right, already you’re hired.” And that’s how it all started.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: Yeah.

Janet Attwood: I tried to make it short but it’s an important story. And I know because you teach this as well. You teach transformation and you teach people and facilitate how to align with their passion. And I spend this time with people and I love to tell the story because one of the most important quotes from the Passion Test is when you are clear. What you choose to have show up in your life will, and only to the extent that you’re clear. And I was clear. I was so clear about what my passion was to be a transformational leader uplifting humanity all over the world. Nothing, nothing would stop me.

And that is absolutely how I went for it, and the other thing that we tell people in the Passion Test is, “You’re not responsible for the how; you’re only responsible for the what.” The how being “How the heck am I going to get the money here? You fly all over the United States and how the heck I’m going to get her to hire me and how, how, how?” And most of us, you know, we play it safe. We stay in our JOB, our Just Over Broke in safety and security because we, you know, are afraid you know that – that, you know, if we go for a big dream and we don’t figure out the how beforehand well, you know, it’s not going to happen so we don’t do it.

You know we’re just like “Don’t do it.” You know, we stay with our – all the things that keep us safe. But here’s what I want everyone to hear. “You’re not responsible for the how. You’re only responsible for the what, the what being, “What do you love? What lights your fire? What turns you on?”

Dr. Patrick Wanis: All right, and …

Janet Attwood: And my other – go ahead.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: I was going to say there are a couple of important points here, too because I like to teach that…

Janet Attwood: Yeah.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: The how is not as important as the why. So you know, “Why do you want something?” So if you establish it’s to your passion, you’re saying to me then that everything else will come in – will fall into place.

Chris Attwood: It’s a really good point, Patrick, again, and just to clarify what Janet and I say in this regard. You know, when you say the “why,” the why is your vision. The why is, “What is it that I really choose to create in my life?” It’s another way of saying, getting the clarity and the whole Passion Test process, you know, identifying your top five passions is the first step, but the whole process is aimed to build up, to create that vision of why is it that you choose to create what you choose to create. Identifying your passion creates the clarity, the first step of creating what you choose to have in your life. And what we’re not saying is that then you can just sit down on a couch and not do anything and somehow magically the thing will come to you.

You know, one of the reasons we love Janet’s story is because it wasn’t that she did nothing. She actually created the plan. She created the very specific plan. She was very committed to that plan and then she didn’t know how she was going to implement that plan. She didn’t know how she was going to make that plan real. So the key pieces that we talk about are Intention, clearly stating what it is you choose to create in your life. Then Attention, we say, what you put your attention on grows stronger in your life. So attention includes action. We say action engages attention, so it means taking action, doing whatever you can think to do to bring fulfillment to that intention. And then, the third piece is No Tension, letting go. And you may recall in Janet’s story, she had the plan and then she let go of it. She didn’t know how it was going to happen. She went to the meditation center. She meditated. And that no tension piece is the piece that most people miss completely.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: Yes.

Chris Attwood: We do all we can think to do and then let go.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: And this is a very critical point because a lot of people don’t understand this and I know there are other teachers who teach this also; Abraham Hicks teaches something very similar. And I think they use the expression letting go. What does that really mean, in real terms? What does it mean to say, “Okay, you’ve set your goal, you know what you want, and you’re clear about it.” You’re taking as much action as possible, but ironically, or paradoxically, we’re also saying you now let go. What does that really mean?

Janet Attwood: It means you go roller skating or you go surfing. [Laughs] You sit down and meditate or you go dancing. You put on a record, you know. You go singing. You get with your friends. You have fun. You do another project. It means you’ve completely stepped out of it. And you surrendered, you know. You just completely – what I’d like to say is you stop stepping on your own hose.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: Okay or you stop pulling out the plant to make sure that its roots are growing. But maybe the other way to look at this, from my perspective as a Human Behavior Expert is to say, “Are we really telling people to stop putting fear onto your intentions.” Stop putting fear on your goal because when you say surrender, when you say let go, when you say go out and play and have fun, do as much work as you can to make this goal happen but then relax, go and enjoy yourself. What you’re saying then is stop acting out of fear thinking that it’s not going to happen. Believe that it will happen. You take the action to make it happen, now, stop acting from a place of desperation because people pick up on that.

Chris Attwood: You’re absolutely right, Patrick. And there’s another aspect to this “no tension piece” and it was embedded in Janet’s story. And that’s what I hear you speaking to and that is to do the action from that state of peace and calm inside that all of us have. All of us have access to that. When we’re embedded in fear, when we’re thinking what all the things that could go wrong, that takes us out of that state of calm. It’s when we are acting from that peaceful place inside that our actions have the greatest power. And that’s why, you know, what everyone’s practice, whether it’s meditation or prayer, or in some way connecting to that deepest part of your own nature, that helps you to connect with that place that then allows your actions to have the greatest power to be able

… is to stay open. You know the reason for going and playing music or doing something else, whatever it might be, the concept of surrender, the reason is to stay open because when you follow your passions, guaranteed, it won’t show up the way you think it will. It’s going to show – you know in our experience, it almost never does. We’re constantly surprised to how the fulfillment of our passion is occurring in ways we never could have dreamed of. So if we’re stuck on the way we think, if you’re stuck on the way you think, that it needs to be fulfilled, then in the process, you close yourself off to the opportunities that are showing up that may be unexpected.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: Yeah and then, Chris, in practical terms, I’d like to explain it this way. You know, you’ve used the phrase no tension so then let’s assume that I’m in a state of tension. Then I have a sense of desperation, a sense of fear, a sense of “This is not going to happen so I’ve got to try harder. I’ve got to push harder.” And when I’m making phone calls, when I’m meeting people, when I’m making presentations, when I’m applying, when I’m auditioning, when I’m being interviewed, I’m giving off the energy that I’m desperate. I’m giving off the energy that I’m afraid. I’m giving off the energy that this is not going to work. And the people around me sense that energy. And I think we all notice that when we meet someone who has that fear, we feel uncomfortable and we don’t want to be near them. So we’re not going to be invited to work with them. Do you agree with that?

Janet Attwood.        Absolutely, I mean, how’s that feel? I mean, you know how it feels when you’re around that person, either that or you’ve been there so many times that you understand what that person is going through and you have complete compassion for them. And you say when you’re around them and you say, “It’s okay, I understand.” Now, let’s take a breath and step back.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: I wanted to add something too, Janet. When you talked about money earlier, I asked the tough question, “Now, wait a minute, is there something wrong with going for money?” And obviously, there is. If that’s your real passion, because there are some people who like the challenge of making money, but that wasn’t the case for you. But nonetheless, you found your passion. You followed your passion. The money followed you. The money came to you. The success came to you, the success not just in terms of material things, obviously, but in terms of what fulfills you. And at this point is where I want to say that you and Chris have obviously helped thousands and thousands of people around the world to find their passion.

You’ve developed this Passion Test, which we’re going to talk about in a bit more detail shortly. But you’ve also worked with and shared the stage with the Dalai Lama, with Sir Richard Branson, with Jack Canfield, with Lisa Nichols and many other transformational leaders. And in fact, you and Chris helped put together most of the teachers in the movie “The Secret.” So Chris, can you explain how that happened?

Chris Attwood: Sure. I love to. I mean, now it’s a great example of the unexpected. Janet and I years ago were approached by some friends, Liz and Ric Thompson, to create an online magazine called “Healthy Wealthy and Wise”. Our intent was to bring some of the greatest transformational knowledge available to people online, and it was really aligned with the things Janet and I loved to do. We loved to connect, to connect people and connect with people. And so for a number of years, we had the good fortune to interview some of the most successful people in the world about their passions and how they discovered them and the obstacle they faced along the way.

So a couple of years after that, we got an email from one of our subscribers. She had actually enrolled in a program we created about creating alliances, “how do you create Enlightened Alliances”, and she told us about her passion that she was creating a movie that she said was going to transform the world. And she sent us a short trailer about that movie, and it completely blew us away. It was so powerful. She was Australian. She’d already gotten the Nine Network in Australia to agree to broadcast it. And she had a wonderful story as she told about how she unfolded her passion. And it’s so inspired Janet and me that we said, “You know, we want to help you.” And she was asking if we would help to connect it with some of these successful people.

Janet Attwood: Yeah, we thought, we were going to help the sweet mother. [Laughs]

Dr. Patrick Wanis: And of course, the woman we’re talking about is Rhonda Byrne who then went on to …

Janet Attwood: Exactly.

Chris Attwood: to create the movie “The Secret” and then which became a book “The Secret,” which then, helped impact a lot of people’s lives to gain clarity about what they want and to follow the processes of manifesting and bringing into life what you want. I know that you know, one of the key points, too, is that maybe it wasn’t really highlighted in the movie but you have to take action to make anything happen.

Janet Attwood: And that’s the second step to the formula that Chris was just sharing “Intention, Attention, No Tension.” You know, the intention clarifies what your passions are, get clear; attention, you’re powerful. You know, what are you putting your attention on, right? And then once you’ve put your attention on something, your passion, then you strike like lightning in all directions. You take your action. You do every single thing you know to do. And then, of course, the last part is that letting go part.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: Now, there were two key steps to taking action that you talk about. Then I’d like maybe Chris or Janet to answer this. “Burning your Bridges,” what do you mean by that and how did that work in your story?

Janet Attwood: Well, okay. So, in my story, what I didn’t tell just a minute ago because I didn’t want to tell the whole story and then the interview be over, was that when I had decided that I was going to fly all over the United States to stop Debra Poneman, to work with her. One of the things that Debra had said in her seminar was that you needed to burn all your bridges, you know, get rid of things that are in your life that are in the way of you’re being able to live your passions. And so, what was looming in my mind was my job because I still wasn’t into it and, you know, everyday I was sitting there wasting all my time.

So, I went in and I burned that bridge real fast. You know, before I got on a plane, I walked into work and I told the owner, I said, “Hey, Ted. You know, I’m not doing it. I know I’m not doing it. So today, I’m going to give my two-week notice.” And Patrick, at the time I was thinking, “Okay, let’s see. In my commission, I’ll get a check that’ll see me through until I fly, you know, until I figure out what I’m going to do.” And, you know, and Ted looks at me and goes, “Well, Janet, you know, what we’ve found is that when someone gives their two weeks’ notice, they’re not really present in the office, right there. It’s like they’re already gone. So we’re going to give you your going-away cake today.”

And so that was how I burned my bridges. You know, another thing, Debra said that if you want something in your life then, if you have, you know, a lot of it but you’re not using, get rid of it, you know, if you want something new. So, one day, I was telling the story in a seminar. It was about 12 people, and I showed them a picture. I said, “Look, I even made a vision board. I’ve got this beautiful coat that I want.” And then, someone in my audience said, “Well, don’t you already have a long, a floor-length, red flock coat with a hood?” And it was this $8,000 coat. And I said, “Yeah.” And they said, “Well, but that one is kind of old, isn’t it? It was a few years old.” I said, “Well, yeah.”  And they said, “Well, so you should give it away, right?” [Laughs] I said, “Yeah.”

So, you know, I realized right then I was stuck in that moment of, “Okay, am I going to be in my integrity or not?” So, I went and got my coat and gave it away to that person who asked me that question, and that was the bridge as I burned on that one too. [Laughs] And I’ll tell you something, Patrick. We don’t tell everybody that, you know – we tell everyone to take baby steps. This is a Janet-Attwood-kind-of-motive functioning. It’s just in my nature. I like to jump off cliffs and then look to see how far I’m going.

But we tell people, you know, just take little baby steps every single day in the direction of your passions. Then what happens when you do that is that, you start to see that what you love in God’s will, in other words, nature, the unified field, whatever name you want to put to that energy is greater than yourself, you start to align with, right? When you say what you love in God’s will for you is one and the same. And when you start to align with your passions, what happens, and put your attention on them and use the passion to have formula, is that you start to notice that you become what we called a passionate magnet and the people and the places and the things start to show up. And why we say take baby steps is because then you start to gain trust, right? And so you don’t scare the heck out of yourself. As you said, you know, a lot of people have a lot of fear about going for what they want. Well, they do because sometimes they bite off more than they can chew. And then, they don’t chew it at all, right, because they get so absorbed in the fear mode.

So we say take baby steps and then along the way what you start to do is you start to grow in courage. And with that courage, comes power of conviction. And with that power of conviction, you become immovable. And then afterwards, you can start taking on everything all at once because you know that that where you gain the most supportive nature is when you align with those things that have greatest meaning to you because that is what you’re supposed to be doing in your life.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: Janet, when you told me about burning your bridges, you’re also talking about letting go of the comfort zone. And you’re also talking about getting rid of that thing, whatever that thing is, that’s stopping you from doing something new and taking new action. So, for you, the job was your comfort zone because you said, “Hey, it’s giving me the money. I’m going to give two weeks notice.” So that was your comfort zone. I’m going to have enough money to then take some new action. But even the job itself was a comfort zone, if you stayed in that job, you would have never taken the action to follow Debra around the country. So that job was a comfort zone but it was also the thing that stopped you from trying something new, correct?

Janet Attwood: Well, yeah, in that sense. Yeah, I would say it was. Yeah, I didn’t really look at it that way at that time but I can look back and see. You know, I was only in the job a month. So I don’t know if that was very much comfort. [Laughs]

Dr. Patrick Wanis: But if you had let go, when you didn’t have the job, if you were suddenly jobless, you wouldn’t be having the same level of comfort – it wasn’t a prison for you, in the sense of a comfort zone is a prison. But if you stayed in that job, how could you follow Debra around the country?

Chris Attwood: So it’s a great point that you make, Patrick. And there are times that taking the next step absolutely requires stepping out of your comfort zone. It always requires to one extent or another. And what Janet was talking about just a moment ago is to what extent – in each moment, each of us has to make a choice. And the extent we stepped out of our comfort zone, it needs to be tied to the level of fear as you were talking about before, the level of fear that that step will take. If taking a step is going to create such unbelievable fear for us that that’s what we’re creating, that’s what we’re emanating, just as you were talking about earlier, then we’re not going to attract the things that are needed, that are necessary to bring into our life to fulfill our passion.

Janet Attwood: Yeah, and so what, you know, in following that, it’s not having a job would brought up so much fear, then there is now way that I could follow Debra, you know, all over the place, and have the inner strength that I needed to have in order for her to see the value of what I brought to the table. So, I knew I had the time, you know. You know, that was my comfort zone, actually. It wasn’t so much out of my comfort zone.

Chris Attwood: If I can make one other comment on this, Patrick, because it’s a really important point. We talked about it in the Passion Test, because it is so important as you’re following your passions. What we’ve seen is that, in general, there are two kinds of people. And some people, the way that they best respond to new opportunities is by – as Janet did, jumping off a cliff and looking for the parachute when they’re half way down. And there are other people that if they took that same action, it would so paralyze them that they would be unable to do anything. And so, it’s real. One of the things that we teach in the Passion Test and in our programs is something we call “Nature’s Guiding System” of being able to pay attention to the internal guidance that we’re always getting.

And for many people, what we’ve seen is that the key here, the key and most important principle is what we call the secret that guarantees a passionate life. And that secret is that, whenever you’re faced with a choice, a decision or an opportunity, choose in favor of your passions. The second piece of that is then just recognizing that for some, for you it may be appropriate to take smaller steps, take incremental steps in favor of your passions. So as Janet said, you build up that confidence, that trust which, in turn, brings the courage to take the next major step in living your passions.

And then there are others like Janet, too, and others that we’ve met who the best thing that they can do is simply clear the decks and then take that giant step forward to step out into the unknown. And it really comes down to paying attention to your own nature and what will allow you to move forward, what will allow you to take the step without being paralyzed. Does that make sense?

Dr. Patrick Wanis: It makes a lot of sense. And you talked there about the courage or even the strength to take those steps. And so I want to spend a moment talking about the power of emotion and how that can get in the way of you actually taking the steps. And what I mean by that is, I was recently watching “Larry King Live” when he was interviewing the winners and the runners-up to NBC’s TV show “The Biggest Loser”. So these were people that had lost massive amounts of weight but who’d started off with massive amounts of weight. And he asked them questions like, “How did you become so big? What happened?”

And, unfortunately, Larry missed out on what these people were really saying. One after another, each runner up, each winner and each contestant that was on Larry King’s TV set said the following, along the lines of, “I never put myself first. I was always busy taking care of other people. I never thought about myself. I worried so much about other people.” They were all saying the same thing that they weren’t thinking enough about themselves. They were either living for other people or not putting themselves first.

And here, of course, I’m talking about balance, not being greedy or selfish, but moving beyond things such as guilt or the belief that you have to live for someone else or you have to live what someone else wants you to do or live for them;  the concept of the parent that says to his or her child, “Oh, I never had a chance to be a doctor. So you have to be a doctor.” And this is what happened with one of my clients. She was 28 years of age, desperately, desperately, deeply depressed because she doesn’t want to become a doctor but her parents wanted her to become a doctor because they came from a really horrible background. They came to this country as immigrants. And they said, “We want you to do what we never had the chance to do.” So this girl was in deep depression for years and extremely unhappy, extremely ill because she couldn’t live her passion because she was living for her parents. How do you help these people, Janet and Chris?

Janet Attwood: Well, we have this incredible process that we use in our programs that is a sure-fire thing. And I’ll tell you, it’s a sure-fire thing because – and by the way, everything that Chris and I share are processes and tools that we’ve used in our own lives. We never ever thought before, you know, when we first started that we were going to be traveling all over the world or that we are going to have over 500 facilitators and, you know, eight different programs. That wasn’t the point.

What we were both trying to do with all of these different tools that we now share was get ourselves out of the hole that we were in. And one of those tools is called “The Work of Byron Katie”. And it’s this process of self inquiry that enables an individual to, just by asking four questions, what Katie says four questions in a turn around, one is to able to go from a place where you have these limiting beliefs and realizing that it was just the mind that had the limiting belief. That in reality, what is, is; Katie says that “God is good. God is everything. And there are no mistakes in the universe. God is good. God is everything. And there are no mistakes in the universe.”

And so, you know, what our limiting beliefs, thinking that we did something wrong or thinking we should do something better, or thinking that we should have something this better, the other thing and, or I’m not enough. And so this process, what it does is that, it works with what we called “the terrorism of the mind” because, you know, and having limiting beliefs creates terrorism. And these four questions are simply this: Is it true? Can you really know that it’s true? How do you feel when you attach to that thought, turn that thought around. And just by asking these four simple questions, one can go from a place of complete terrorism back to that state of peace and understanding. And I’ll tell you, it’s an incredible process.  [The exact questions from Byron Katie are listed as:

Is that true?

Can you absolutely know that that’s true?

How do you react when you believe that thought?

Who would you be without that thought?]

And Chris and I used it in our own life. For those listening, we used to be married. We haven’t been married for over 15 years. And we’re best friends, business partners. He’s remarried. His wife was one of my best friends. They have a two-year-old daughter named Sophie. And I’m the godmother of their baby. And this came about because we used this process in our own lives to get rid of any concepts that we had about how things should be, and instead, met them with understanding by using this beautiful tool.

Chris Attwood: You know one thing …

Dr. Patrick Wanis: Then what that also means is you had to break – I’m sorry Chris, but I just want to say, that means you had to break the all-limiting belief that we must be together forever, no matter what.

Janet Attwood: Yeah, we had to break that limiting belief, I mean, now it was really a hard one because both of us were, you know, committed to the thought that you needed to stay committed forever. And so, yeah, we had to do that one. And then Doris, his wife had to, you know, all of us had to break the limiting beliefs that the ex-wife, you know, shouldn’t be friends with or can’t be friends with the, you know, her ex-husband, best friends and best friends with the wife, the new wife, right? Because how many people do you know were like that, have that? I mean, we vacation together. I mean, we are the weirdest group of people. I’d go and hang out with Doris’ mom and dad in Germany.

And this is what’s possible, when you get rid of any concepts and limiting beliefs. And limiting beliefs, as Chris and I have traveled the world, are the only thing that gets in the way of anyone living a passionate life. You know, Patrick, all of us had had dreams at one time or another. All of us have had a dream. And then, you know, when we were a kid and then someone came along and said, “Who do you think you are? You’re not smart enough, beautiful enough. You don’t know enough. You don’t have what it takes. You’re not educated enough.” And then we bite into it. And now, what this whole program that we now share and part of it includes this process that we’re talking about is to help people reclaim their power.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: And what you’re saying also ties into something that I teach and believe in very strongly; so two things: The first is you don’t need to learn anything new. You need to unlearn everything you’ve ever been taught because most of what we were taught are the things you just said. “You’re not good enough. You’re not smart enough. That’s not for you or you’ll never make it, or why do you even think that that is for you, or you’re silly, or you’re stupid, or there’s something wrong with you, or it’s your fault.” You know, I have a client that has been struggling for years because her mother was a single mother. And she would say to her daughter. “It’s your fault that I’m suffering.”

So, of course, this girl grows up into an adult and feels guilty about even being alive, feels guilty for existing. And then that ties into the next thing that I teach, which is what I call “The Law of Deservedness”. You get only what you subconsciously believe you deserve and you don’t get any more because if you do get more, you’ll sabotage it or you will push it away. So that ties into what you’re teaching, which is helping people to get beyond the old limiting belief, whatever that limiting belief is. And it might be, “Oh, I’m too old, or I’m too young, or I’m too short, or I’m too fat, or I’m too skinny, or I don’t speak the language, or I’m not smart enough,” or something else that even says, “Hey, I’m not allowed to be more successful than my mother or father, or my mother and father suffered so I have to suffer as well, or my mother and father had to work hard, so am I allowed to live my dream, am I allowed to live my passion?”

So do you use the same process that you talked about, the four questions from Byron Katie, to help people smash through the beliefs that they’re not good enough or that they don’t deserve success?

Chris Attwood: That’s the whole purpose of that process. And we found it to be one of the most powerful ways of investigating the truth of any thought because that’s the only thing that gets in the way of our ability to live our passion. So we hold beliefs, or concepts or ideas that simply aren’t true for us. And yet, we have grown up with them, just as you’ve said Patrick, that they’ve been there from the youngest age and they’ve become so embedded in our nature that we’ve developed mental and emotional patterns based on those beliefs and concepts and ideas that most of us are not even aware of, not that you can awake to, until we begin to investigate, until we begin to notice. And that’s one of the reasons why we say that the whole Passion Test process is for the purpose of becoming a conscious creator of your life.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: Now, what I liked about – sorry, Chris, what I wanted to really say and powerfully, what I like about what you’re saying and teaching in the Passion Test isn’t just, “Oh, well, now you know what your passion is, let’s go after it.” What you’re also helping people to do is to actually enjoy living their passion. And what I mean by that is, I work with clients that are singers, models, musicians, actors, and they have a lot success, but then they’re not able to enjoy it because they feel guilty for their success, or they don’t feel they’re deserving of their success, or they feel like they are impostors. So, you’re saying to me that your program actually helps to remove those limiting beliefs as well.

Chris Attwood: All of the beliefs that we hold you know, and it’s so interesting that you bring this up, Patrick, because even people who appear to have great success, looking from the outside in, still maybe they have beliefs, concepts, ideas, thoughts that come up that prevent them from being able to truly live a joyful and fulfilled life, which it’s what all of us are here to do, right? That’s the whole purpose of it. And the work of Byron Katie we found is one of the most powerful tools we’ve ever experienced for being able to investigate those thoughts, whether it’s guilt or self-sabotage, or whatever they may be to investigate those thoughts, to unravel them, and that with that comes real freedom. That’s the freedom to enjoy life the way it was meant to enjoy.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: Now, the freedom to live your passion is obviously the whole key in the freedom or the ability to enjoy when you’re actually living your passion without any sense of guilt or without any sense of self-sabotage. In Janet’s case, you know, Janet became a teacher, a speaker or transformational leader, an author, as you have too, or as you both are doing. Sometimes people look at the personal development industry, the self-help movement and they say, “Well, everyone that’s doing that, all these people that discovered their passion, they’re either one of two things: they’re either a public speaker or an author. But what about other people? What are the other passions that you’ve helped people with?

Chris Attwood: Well, I love that question. And one of my favorite stories in the Passion Test is a story of the 75-year-old man. Now, many people will come to us also and say, “Well, I’m too old, you know. I lived my life and I didn’t choose to favor my passion. But now, it’s too late for me.” And so, I would say, “It’s absolutely never too late to connect your life with the things you love.”

This man Ado had a long-standing desire to teach English in China. He just loved China and he had the opportunity to spend time there. And he had been trying for two years to see and figure out some way to get a job at the university or a school in China to teach English. And he’d been completely unsuccessful. And then after reading the Passion Test, he went through – he clarified his top passions, he realized how important this was to him, and he also realized that he’d been holding the belief that he was too sick and too old to be able to really do this. But he had diabetes and he, somewhere, inside of him, while he was trying to make the applications, he was also, as you said, sabotaging himself. And when he realized that and he undid that, when he unraveled that belief, within a week, he got an email from the university in China, inviting him for an interview. He completed the interview, and a month later, he was in China, in Guangzhou province, a gorgeous place. This is the valley where when you see many Chinese paintings where they have beautiful mountains covered with mist. Those are typically those mountains. And there he was, living his passion at 75 years old.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: Now, that’s a really powerful story because it’s out of the box.

Chris Attwood: Yeah.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: And it doesn’t …

Chris Attwood: Exactly. Yes. He wasn’t a speaker and author. How about that, huh

Dr. Patrick Wanis: Not only that, but here is a guy that’s 75 that says, “You know what? This is what I’ve always wanted to do.” And most people would logically – I use the word logic – to turn around and say, “You are too old. You are too frail. You got diabetes.” And his family is pressing, “Oh, no, dad. We don’t want you to do that. You could die if you travel.” But he went beyond that. I’m guessing that he’s enjoying what he’s doing. I don’t know how the hell long ago the story is. And I have a similar story with a client that it wasn’t even a client at that moment. She happened to be just a friend of a friend, who met me and said, “Look, can we have coffee.” And we went out and had coffee.

And at that time, she was working in multilevel marketing. But she didn’t really like it. And obviously, it wasn’t her passion and somehow, I remember asking this question, “What is your passion?” And it turned out to be painting. And the interesting thing about her story was the person above her in the MLM company kept putting her down and said, “No. No. You can’t do that. You shouldn’t do that. You’ll never succeed.” And her own mother had raised her the same way – because I asked the question, “Well, who told you, you can’t do this?” And her own mother had raised her to say, “You’ll never make money from it. It’s not for you, et cetera, et cetera.” Whatever I said in that moment, Chris and Janet, led her to take action to live her passion. And now, and from that moment, she went on to start painting. She did it full time. She was taking commissions. And now she has a published book of her artwork.

And again, and she’s so extremely happy because of what you talk about. She’s connected to living her purpose. And I guess what I really want to ask you now is, what can someone listening right now do to find their passion, because a lot of people have no idea what their passion is, and then what can they do to make it happen?

Janet Attwood: Oh, we’re so excited that you asked us that question because what we’d love everyone to do that’s listening, we’re just launching our new program, as you know, “Passionate Life Secrets” and making go right now to https://www.thepassiontest.com/offer/ptprofile?af=60482

And they can find out where they’re living right now, in terms of, you know, how much they’re living their passions. And plus, they’re going to get all kinds of free videos with great, super great content.

I tell you, Patrick, we’re overloaded with emails from people who have gone to this – and gone and watched these videos saying thank you so much, they’re already on their way to living their passionate life by just watching these free videos that we’ve sent them, which makes us really excited. So, they can go and get to all of this wonderful content right now, which I’m so happy to offer, and thank you for asking.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: Well, I’ll make sure that I’ll identify that link along with this audio program so people will know exactly where they go and they can click on it, et cetera. [Click here: https://www.thepassiontest.com/offer/ptprofile?af=60482 ] Your program; tell me a bit more about the program. Once I’ve seen these videos, and I have already seen quiet a few of the videos and they really are amazing because they do contain real content, real information and look, I walked away remembering the following things: set your intention, place your attention on what you want, what you want to create, what your passion is, no tension, let go and surrender. And I remember the other two things you teach: Burn your bridges, let go of the old, make way for the new. Now, I learned them from your videos. I didn’t even read anything.

Janet Attwood: Oh, super.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: So, I know that there’s real content in your videos. Tell me about what I’m going to get if I take the next step and I get your program. And I’d say, “You know what? I’m going to take this Passion Test. I’m going to go and live my passion.”

Janet Attwood: You’re going to get more real content.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: All right.

Janet Attwood: And, you know, what we’ve done, Chris and I put together, actually, everything that we’ve learned in the last 30 years into this program. I mean, we just like opened all of the doors. We didn’t hold back anything. It’s every tool, every process, every, you know, every thought, every “Aha” that we’ve had. And it’s so friendly and you know, usable. It’s just so wonderful because it’s very simple. We have people walk step by step through, you know, one door and then into another, how to get rid of your limiting belief, and we take you through the work of Byron Katie. And then we, you know, we share with the Nature’s Guidance System on how you can enjoy, not only being and that expanded happy state that, you know, all of us always loved to be in, but also how to take a new look at when you’re not feeling expanded and happy.

In other words, being contracted and how that works for you too, and how you can really use this tool to walk through life really gracefully. And really, you know, stay on your center at all times. And you know so and then we, of course, take them step by step by step through the Passion Test process. And what the Passion Test does is that it’s one exercise after the other that gives people so crystal clear that when they close their eyes, they can actually see the world that they choose to create. And, you know, this is really exciting for us, this whole program because we’ve never ever been able to just take everything, you know, our years of knowledge and put it out like this. So, we’re as excited as the people we’re hearing from because it’s our gift.

This is absolutely our gift. And, you know, you were talking about, you know, main passion, as well, both Chris and I give our passion is to give our gift to the world. And that’s our high. We’re just completely out of the box, happy this week, because of this wonderful opportunity that we’ve had to share our knowledge with people all over the world.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: And I know that in your program, you also help people to identify their top 5 passions and how to ensure that you’re living in alignment with those top 5 passions every day. And for people listening who might suddenly say, “You know what? My passion is teaching and my passion is I want to help other people find their passion,” they can actually become certified to teach your program, correct?

Janet Attwood: Yeah. Is that fun? You know, what we tell people was that …

Dr. Patrick Wanis: Is that what Jack Canfield does? Doesn’t he also teach your program?

Janet Attwood: Yeah. Jack shares our program, which is his advanced program, which we thought was just about as, you know, great of a compliment of a program could be. He came to us and said would it be okay if I share the Passion Test with my students. And we said, “Are you serious? You know, here, what else can we give you?”

Marci Shimoff also from “Happy for No Reason” and, you know, sold over 13 million books from the “Chicken Soup for the Soul” series, is also one of our facilitators. Stewart Emery’s wife, Joan Emery Stewart wrote “Success Built to Last”. She’s also a facilitator. They took our program to China and really opened it up in China to the corporate world. So this is a wonderful, wonderful tool. And what we say is it’s not just for people who want to go out and stand on a stage or, you know, share a program with, you know, some corporations; The Passion Test Certification Program, first and most importantly, is to help people to really own and ground the knowledge of being able to live your passion full out. And the icing on the cake is that, guess what, if you want to, you can start sharing it with other people as well and monetize your passions. You can, in other words, you can make money by doing it. And I’ll tell you, we have the juiciest monetizing program that we’ve seen out there. That’s why our program is doubling this year and, you know, just going so great again.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: What was that expression, the juiciest monetizing program? [Laughs] I love that.

Janet Attwood: Yeah. And what we mean by that is that Chris and I look at this and we thought, there a lot of people that want to go out and make a living, sharing with others how to live a passionate life. And, you know, if they start and then they don’t have any money then that’s no fun and then they’re not so passionate. So, what we’ve done is we’ve created a way for people to share the Passion Test and our other programs and make great money while they’re doing it.

And we’ve heard over and over again how amazing it is for us facilitators, the opportunity that we’ve opened up them. And not only that, one of our facilitators, she became a Certified Passion Test instructor. Two months afterwards, she was on a stage with 500 people. You know, all possibilities are open. But number one, again, first and foremost, is we tell people, “Just don’t come with any mindset, other than the fact that you want to come with certifications so that you can own the knowledge of aligning with your own passions, get the tools to get rid of your limiting belief, get the tool to learn how to be centered in all adversity. And then, you now, decide what else you want to do with it. But first, come and own it.”

And that’s what we have people do. And, maybe, at the end of the course, a lot of people say, “Well, I’m going to go out and teach the world.” But they only had the desire just to come and share, you know, so that they could get rid of whatever it was that was standing in a way of being able to sing their song. We’ve all got a great song to sing. And this program is such an incredible program because what it does, it will give you the tools to be able to give your unique, incredibly valuable gift to the world. And so we invite everyone to take a look at the Passion Test Certification Program. And that, is it okay if I give that URL out?

Chris Attwood: Yeah, of course, give it again. And I’m going to make sure the people have the link. But please, go ahead and give it.

Janet Attwood: Okay, www.thepassiontest.com/cert. So the one for our Passionate Life Secrets Program and take your Passion Test Profile is https://www.thepassiontest.com/offer/ptprofile?af=60482 And so, now they’ve got those too. And that’s how everyone can find out how they can take their, you know, where they are right now in living their passion full out.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: Well, Janet and Chris, I’m truly grateful and I say, thank you for your graciousness and the amount of wonderful information you’ve shared. If nothing else, just the possibility of people going to your program and removing the old emotional blocks that stopped them from just being able to enjoy the moment and to enjoy life is worth a million dollars, let alone going to the next level and then living your passion, which completely transforms your enjoyment of life, and the success that you’ll experience in life. So, a very big and a very sincere thank you to you, Janet, and to you, Chris.

Janet Attwood: And thank you to you for, you know, interviewing us. And it’s so clear after all of our conversations that you are so completely aligned with this knowledge saying it in a different way. And just sharing your gift to the world to, you know, to uplift humanity and thank you for that. And thank you for being you. It’s wonderful that we’ve created this great friendship.

Chris Attwood: Yes.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: It is my pleasure, Janet. Sorry, Chris, you wanted to say something.

Chris Attwood: I just wanted to thank you, as well, Patrick. And the work that you do is very important work, obviously, clearly aligned with all that we teach about passion, and thank you for giving us the chance to support your subscribers and members as well.

Dr. Patrick Wanis: It’s my pleasure. And I honor and respect and encourage and endorse your message. So a big thank you to Janet and Chris Attwood, the authors of the New York Times bestseller, The Passion Test: The Effortless Path to Discovering Your Destiny. And look along this audio program because there will be a link, in case you’ve missed it, so you can go to their Passion Test.

[Click here for the free videos and free Passion profile analysis: https://www.thepassiontest.com/offer/ptprofile?af=60482 ]

END

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